Field Notes in Philanthropy: Sittin’ Here on Capitol Hill

Mar 14, 2018

Episode 2: Sittin’ Here on Capitol Hill

Philanthropy and policymaking came head-to-head in national conversations this winter during the tax overhaul debates. Among many others, foundation leaders and associations jumped in to advocate on behalf of the charitable sector. But many foundations have the means, the expertise, and the will to shape other kinds of public policy – the kinds that shape our communities, governance, and daily lives.

Vikki Spruill, President and CEO of the Council on Foundations, and Dr. Jason Franklin, W.K. Kellogg Community Philanthropy Chair at the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy, join us to explore the many ways foundations can get involved in shaping public policy, and whether or not they should.

Full Transcript:

PC: You're listening to field notes in philanthropy. I'm Patrick Center TM: I'm Tory Martin. MD: I'm Matthew Downey PC: Philanthropy and policy making came head to head in national conversations this winter during the tax overhaul debates from March 12th through the 14th US Foundations will be back in Washington meeting with lawmakers to advocate on behalf of the sector during an annual event called Foundations on the Hill. Why do I see a lot of lawmakers staring? *laughter* TM: And eating a lot of chicken lunches, and  PC: It's all catered. *laughter* PC: Anyway, they're going to be continuing conversations around the charitable tax deduction, the Johnson Amendment and how excised tax is impacted Philanthropic organizations. But that's not all they're going to be talking about Foundations on the Hill will also be an opportunity to discuss whether, and how philanthropy can play a role in ensuring that the 20/20 census count is accurate and inclusive. And the Johnson Amendment itself a piece of the tax code that was originally proposed by Senator Lyndon Baines-Johnson in 1954 and which prohibits 501C3 organizations from expressing support or opposition to political candidates raises a number of questions about how non-profits can engage in advocacy and even whether they should which begs the question for us how our foundations. And there are many, many different kinds of foundations engaging in advocacy and effecting policy in our country. Matthew. MD: It's complicated.  PC: All of our topics are complicated. *laughter* TM: Well I always come back to a question that you know, they a-always ask in interviews when you're interviewing in this sector, which is "what draws you to philanthropy?” And for me, I al- I have always loved the concept that if you have the money you can do what you want, for the most part. You know, you can accomplish something if you have millions or billions of dollars. You can accomplish something if you have a hundred dollars or if you have ten dollars, depending on what it is that you want accomplished. But, you get into trouble when what you wanna accomplish is a law, is a policy, that's where things get difficult. It's one thing to clean up the park down the street, it's another to put a millage in place to support parks on an annual basis from tax payer dollars.  PC: Generosity is normally not a part of that policy making process. TM: Well, you know, I think people would probably argue with you one way or the other depending on what policy they're talking about but yeah. MD: I think it is what you want it to accomplish right, so you can have all the money, but did you get out of the process what you thought you were gonna get or what you desired to get is um I think is an issue at play too, and understanding how to impact change matters. And I think that's part of the conversation that we have today right? TM: Yeah, absolutely, how you want to impact change and what you can do I think it's, it's part of this ongoing conversation for us around just gaining a great understanding of what philanthropy can do, should do, is doing, wants to do in the future, you know lots of conversation around the Johnson Amendment you can not back or pose political candidates, but what can you do in a political arena that isn't specifically related to one party, one person or is related to a party, but there's a lot of questions there. MD: This notion of the Foundations going to the Hill and doing lobbying I think there's really two sides of it that their lobbying for themselves, um and how they can go about doing their work but there's also the issues that their concerned about and and and trying to push those forward and I think that foundations so often want to be in the background and they're not always out in front of the issues they want their grantees to be, and so I think there's a challenge there that they're sort of now sort of advocating for themselves which has to be uncomfortable, and then um there's the lawmakers who have varied understanding of of how foundations work and then as they change over and as we see politics go into these more extremes, that means there's new political actors that are perhaps interacting with foundation people for the first time. And so it's gotta be awkward.  *laughter* MD: Very Awkward TM: At least there's catering MD: *laughing* Yeah, at least there's catering. PC: That's right, we we feed people, they feel better, you hope they're listening and then they take a nap.  MD: Right.  TM: Sounds like.. MD: And then that's when you get your key note right? *laughter* MD: But you know it really matters because there's some *mutter* incredible moments where I was thinking about head start today, and head start really was a project that had Ford Foundation investment, and that it it proved successful, and so then they were able to, head start was able transition the funding of it over to be a public policy matter that didn't get implemented and a lot of important work gets done providing education opportunities to families and children who really need it. *Music plays softly in background* So were, what what they talk about matters and so regardless of the awkwardness of the exchange mainly.  *MUSIC BED" TM: You're listening to Filed Notes in Philanthropy PC: The Council on Foundations a national network of grant making foundations in corporations that is based right outside of Washington D.C. is one of the key partners organizing this event. Vicki Sprole is President and CEO of The Council on Foundations. You joined us to talk about the event and the councils place in this conversation Vicki how are you doing? VS: I'm great, thank you I'm delighted to be here. PC: And thanks for joining us, we also have another guest for the show today and we'd like to bring into the conversation right from the get go that is Dr. Jason Franklin W. K. Kellogg Chair for Community Philanthropy at the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy at Grand Valley State University Jason thanks for joining in. JF: Thanks Patrick it's nice to be here. PC: You do a lot of work around how foundations have engaged in social justice advocacy and impacted policy making. We're gonna start out with Vicki, tell us about the Council on Foundations and the type of foundations and corporations you work with. VS: Sure sure, so the council is the leading national association of about a thousand foundations and grantmakers, and we work with foundations of all types and sizes in every community across the country we also have global members and they include community foundations, private foundations and corporate foundations. And we do three things primarily. First we help to give voice to why philanthropy matters and we tell the story of philanthropy by sharing and amplifying how philanthropy's addressing some of the nation's greatest challenges. Second we advocate for tax policy legislation and regulations that encourage charitable giving in this country and culture of charitable giving. And third we help strengthen the field by engaging our member, challenging our members to embrace new thinking and approaches, whether that's through professional development opportunities or convening’s and gatherings of all types and sizes on both the practice of philanthropy how they do their work as well as the issues that their foundations are supporting and are involved with. MD: So when you are encouraging foundations to be active in the public sphere I think that's an important element of um this podcast and uh having a conversation about sort of where politics and policy and intersect with philanthropy. What comes to your mind in terms of having engaging on the hill and really thinking about what are the issues that we see going around in society today, what are some of the the things that you think about when your sort of advocating or um lobbying on behalf of foundations with policy makers or preparing them to do the advocacy and the policy work.  VS: Yeah so I think I'd like to make a distinction here cause I sometimes get conflated so first there's tax policy which is the business of philanthropy and that is primarily our focus in in advocating for those policies and and there are a number of specific ones they include things like ensuring that the Johnson Amendment isn't weakened or allowing IRA's to rolled over to donor advised funds or advocating for the flattening of the private foundation excise tax or more broadly pushing for the universal deduction, which is some call it an above the line deduction, so those are the pieces that are members that we support our members in working on prepared them to come to the hill around tax policy issues. Then there's an array of you know, social issues pretty much every issue under the sun, one of our members is is working on, whether it's education or health care or social justice other issues that are important to them and their communities and in that case we are helping members navigate capitol hill because we see that much of this work, much of this change, uh will, goes beyond grant making, and we want our members to be maximizing their impact by engaging themselves in policy work otherwise, you know they're leaving opportunities on the table. So around those specific issues we are really arming them and helping navigate how to maximize their their impact. MD: When we think about some of the issues and I'd bring Jason into this question as well um as you work with social justice and some of the issues there, you know, I was um reflecting on today on on *mutter* I read I was reading an article about sort of the history of sort of foundation involvement and policy work. And I was looking at a title that was written in a newspaper back in the Industrial age that said how, the title of the article "how foundations will screw up education policy". And then, but I also remembering that not too long ago within the last at least year and a half or so, there was a title of an article in the Chronicle of Philanthropy which said "How foundations will screw up racial equity and uh inclusion work". And so I wonder what is it about foundations and and when they enter into these spaces you know, what makes it complicated and and how do they sort of process it and should we as society sort of process their engagement in policy and society work.  JF: Well, a lot of, we have what, 18 hours to talk through this right?  *laughter* TM: And go. VS: *chuckles* yeah. JF: I mean when we think about foundation engagement and policy reform one of the things that's so important to acknowledge is that foundations plan outsized influence in the policy process beca- compared to donors or corporate funders or others because they are what I call concentrated sources of social capital. They are endowments that are set up every year to be giving out money to focus on the issues that each foundation is looking at. And so we know year over year they will continue to be engaged in the same policies. So the Kellogg Foundation has a deep commitment around racial equity, the Ford Foundations work on social justice. The Hewitt Foundations work on water policy and ocean protection. You could run down the long list, and they're both very powerful and important actors because they have that enduring focus and funding tied to that focus that they're engaged in over time. And then we get the concerns, those articles you mentioned, are essentially asking and raising a question of "what's the power of money in the policy process?” We can look more broadly and see the power of political donors and election policy, but stepping back from elections, which foundations are prohibited from engaging in, we can look at the role of foundations in advocacy, and research on issues, and the concern about will one major actor mess up, as you said, the issue because they'll get one idea of how to change things and if it's not the best one or the right one or if I disagree with it, I'll think they're doing wrong even if they think they're doing right. And it's fundamentally the question of power and politics, and the role of money and power in political advocacy situation.  TM: TM: I think I would extend that too to ask a question around the not only the relationship between foundations and policy making and money, but between foundations and grantees and policy making down the line, I mean, you know, looking at public media for instance, we're in a public media space right now there are a number of for profit media companies who have been launching non-profit wings in the last year or so, uh thinking about how uh you know, journals (?) should not be subject to the whims of capitalism. But part of it too is that if an organization, like the Gates Foundation, for instance wants to fund coverage or support coverage of global health, say. They are also experts in the global health space, so have you both provide money to learn more about global health or support other people out in society in learning more about global health while also being experts, and how does that play with lawmakers, how do you both support ocean research off the coast of Florida and also have a good relationship with your lawmakers in Florida. I mean it's very, none of this is happening in a vacuum of players. VS: Uh, I I'd like to pitch in on that one, so you know, there's a different level of understanding among policy makers, I I I our experience is that we always find a willingness and maybe even, an excitement from politicians regarding their working with foundations. I mean, they understand that there are these shared priorities they do see them as experts, they often rely on research that may have been funded by the foundations, you know they also potentially see them as a as a source of funding. Remember, these elected officials come from communities where often foundations are very well known and are helping to support the number of activities that are going on in that community. Now that doesn't mean though that they, fully understand the sector and what it does and I think some of what you're referring to is just sort of, this confusion cause I do think that historically foundations have been more comfortable letting their grantees do the policy work or funding their grantees to engage more directly in advocacy and so that can lead to confusion as to you know what role does the foundation itself play as a catalyst for change, as a strategic driver of change, in partnership of course with that grantee, but I I think the point I want to make here is that we we want to see foundations, we want to encourage foundations and and philanthropist to use all the tools they have and to themselves to themselves be at the table. JF: Yeah and I really agree with Vicki I'm, I'm regularly saying to foundation leaders you need to be engaged in the policy process. The issues you care about cannot just be solved by funding direct service, so also by funding systems change work, just fundamentally policy work. Whether it be research about the underlying causes of the issue, testing out and funding pilot work that helps explore possible solutions helping to the scale those up, funding your grantees to engage in advocacy, which is completely legal, and is often misunderstood of whether you’re allowed to or not you are absolutely allowed to engage in advocacy and, right up until what you're not allowed to do is engage in political electioneering, an election of an individual candidate or contributing or engaging and direct candidate uh, campaign work. But there's so much available for foundations and donors to be engaged and I think the question and one of the struggles we see today, is I think because of the work of the council and the others that have been beating this drum for decades of trying to encourage or engage when a policy reform and trying to encourage foundations to be more strategic in thinking about how do they achieve the goals that they have played out. We have a struggle today about how they relate to their grantees. Who decides and defines the strategy for change? Who articulates the complexity of the advocacy campaign that's gonna be taken on or even the definition of the issue that is being trying to be solved, and foundations have a lot of power because they are the grant maker in that relationship to push for their strategy and a really effective grant maker to me are those who are able to listen to the feedback from the communities that they're trying to support, the um non-profits that they are funding and be in conversation and collaborating with them around defining a shared agenda rather than dictating to their grantees what they should be doing. VS: It is also goes both ways having spent um actually longer part of my career on the grant receiving side of things you know I think it also is up to the division non-profit being supported by the foundation to to really understand the issues and to speak through to power and to you know push back and be a true partner in that strategic design of whatever the plans are for program. [MUSIC STARTS IN BACKGROUND] JF: Hmm, Absolutely. VS: It go both ways.  [MUSIC BED] PC: You’re listening to Field Notes in Philanthropy.  MD: So Vicki, you were talking about how the foundation comes in to the office to talk about an issue but yet and they and their understand foundations as a funder in their local community that's working with local nonprofits and so I think foundations pop up and sort of such distinct ways and and many different ways and there's a range of different types of grant making that they can do and and and to be getting involved yet their um, you hear them on NPR and so their their their funding a program um, and you hear that all the time and then you think about the local community and how their their partnering with all these different local nonprofits and so yes it would be confusing to see a a foundations popping and in all these different places, how do how you have conversations with foundations so that they can sort of help sort that out so that people are not confused but see that as a strategic opportunity for either the policy maker or for a community. VS: Well, it's it's um it's a hand in glove partnership so you know you have you have the fuel and you have the engine and the foundation is that strategic driver of change the fuel to uh support that engine and the the nonprofit or the charity they support is the both also a strategic partner but the the implementer in many cases, now we're also sort of bleeding into now um, distinctions among foundations so we're in this context really talking about private foundations. There are of course community foundations who who do both giving of money and raising of money you know as more like a nonprofit so it really depends on which kind of foundation you are are referring to but I think generally speaking we like you know, to make the distinction there are the givers there are the getters and together you you um, you create change and both uh, I think have an obligation to be strategic partners in the design of whatever program you're working on and foundations are a lot more than checkbooks, they have again this deep expertise you know a lot of foundation staff now are people who came from the charitable sector and worked in very issue specific organizations prior going to foundations so I think it's, I I think sometimes foundations get sold short on the actual intellectual capacity that they bring to an issue, they're they're again more more than the checkbook. But the distinction is is important.  TM: Absolutely. So then where is the lawmaker in the car, I guess is the next question I mean you can develop a strategy for how you want to  VS: Yeah yeah TM: Accomplish particular new policy but we have a vote but we have a distant vote in this uh, federal democratic republic, which is multiple levels of governances. So how do how do foundations work to kind of build a bridge between nonprofits and lawmakers, is that a proper role for them, are they you know, where's the lawmaker in the car? VS: So, I think the lawmaker or the uh founda- the the foundations role is to is to showcase the work of the grantees that they are funding and the grantees role to share the specifics of the the execution the implementation of the work but it's a it's a hand in glove partnership to me it's it's I I I think that what that the charities have been doing this for a long time I think it's the, it's foundations have been maybe slower to, maybe own their power in a policy context or to see policy as another tool in the, so I'm now changing my metaphor, in the toolbox, so I think the I think the I think the *laughter* TM: The toolbox is in the trunk of the car *laughter* VS: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah PC: Hand in glove  TM: Hand in glove  VS: Yeah yeah I think the law the lawmaker is you know is providing some oversite of the whole process over the process of the charitable sector, that's why when I say what what the council works on, we're working on enabling a culture of charitable giving in this country that that includes both what the foundation does and what foundations enable charitable organizations to do. MD: And I have a new metaphor, unless we move the goal post for um, where that line with charitable giving is right, because if you think about some of the activities we've seen like in Detroit with the buying out of the pensioners of the using philanthropy to buy out the pensioners, um and the Detroit grand bargain or in Kalamazoo, where they have um made a philanthropic endowment foundation to keep property taxes low, there's just such confusion now between where the role of foundations in philanthropy comes in and the role of government and how do we mesh all that? VS: Well, and I I think this is even more exacerbated today because we are in a new environment where we are expecting individual giving to decrease under the new tax law, we're seeing government funding decreasing on the decline and you you combine both of those things and you know the money's gotta money's gotta come from somewhere and I think nonprofits are also going to be looking to foundations in ways perhaps they haven't been before if their charitable giving in de does decrease and so so I mean I think Flint is another great example of this where you know and I can tell you because the council is a diverse and varied membership there are probably as many opinions on this within our membership as there are members but you know what what was the role of the Mott Foundation in that Flint water crisis? Um, and they absolutely contributed financially uh and some would argue that perhaps that was governments role but you know what is a foundation to do when you are in an invested part of that community? And you know, there did both providing financial support and also working with the governor and others to to really begin to take a look at the long term systemic issues facing that community, so I don't think there's a I don't think there's a right or wrong answer and I think it's up to each foundation to sort of see their way through whatever the challenge is in their community, um, but you're right that the lines have gotten blurred. JF: And I think it's an interesting point when we th- talk about the lines blurring today, another part of the blurring or the shifting um, in the field has been the concentration of wealth and the rise of a new major number of major donors, many of whom are establishing new foundations or other giving vehicles to move resources to the nonprofit sector, and many of them jumping straight in to social change and policy work very early on with the historical pattern has been you begin giving you do direct service, you do arts, you do education, and slowly moving into social change later as you're trying to accelerate or move the needle on your issues. But tied to that and tied to the Michigan examples we've just been talking about is also the variety of philanthropic capital across the country. So Michigan has one of the highest densities of large foundations anywhere in the country, the legacy of the auto industry, the generosity of many of the, business owners who built wealth through the auto industry here. You look at California, New York, Washington only because of the Gates Foundation, and then Michigan as the top four states in terms of the assets of the largest foundations. So if you look at Mississippi, if you looked at Arizona, if you looked anywhere in the country the question and expectation that foundation money, that philanthropic capital will be the, the response mechanism for natural disaster, is actually really problematic. There are not foundations like the Mott Foundation in every small city able to respond to the water crisis as they did in Flint. Mott Foundations a billion dollar foundation in the small city, a water crisis happened, and they made a hundred million dollar commitment to help turn that around. We cannot expect philanthropy to step in in that way all over the country, and so it means the duty of government to address natural and man-made disasters, Philanthropy when it is there and when it is present at scale absolutely has a moral responsibility to jump in but we have to be careful as we talk about national patterns not to get distracted by the variety that we see state to state or community to community.  MD: The water did flow into the Mott Foundation offices.  *laughter* TM: That raises really interesting questions having a conversation around what happens in the local jurisdiction when there is a foundation in the area and there is some sort of crisis, versus what happens in places where there aren't major foundations in local areas but then, how you know when we think about, oh policy making we often immediately jump to the federal questions the federal levels how are we talking to senators and you know members of Congress. But there's a great deal of governing obviously that goes on at the state level, and so how do you balance philanthropy where it is majorly impactful in a state versus in states where there is none I mean does does philanthropy have an impact on policy in Louisiana? I have no idea.  VS: So, I'm gonna start this with Jason with your expertise in community philanthropy in particular, I think this one is really tailor made for you, but I think this is where we have to really point to the power of community foundations who often serve as conveners in those communities to bring together the private sector, the public sector, other national philanthropies who partner with community foundations. So you know, this isn't as though so you can have the the Ford Foundation working in communities all across the country in partnership with either other place spaced foundations in that community or community foundations in that community. Um, so I you know I I wouldn't want to suggest that so while I agree with what Jason said that there are communities where there are no large private foundations that doesn't mean that the philanthropic community may not be serving that community because there are you know, wonderful partnerships and leveraging of resources happening all across the country on these issues that transcend geographic boundaries, like health care and education and social justice.  JF: Absolutely. I mean we see community foundations and private foundations and corporate foundations and corporate giving programs engaged in policy change in every community across the country. Urban and rural, coastal and Midwest, south, large communities, small communities, the engagement of policy issues is consistent. The type of engagement looks different. So community foundations play a very unique and powerful role in many communities in being a both fundraiser and grant maker, and a convener of community conversations so increasing conversation across the field about the role of community leadership. Magnifying the impact of your grant making with your role as a leader and a convener and to have conversation, and to step back a little back. Some consistent patterns, so one of the things that you had um, mentioned earlier, like how do foundations engage in policy change? So I looked at over two thousand cases of foundation engagement and policy change across the country from 1969 to the present day, narrowed down looked in depth at you know, twenty different cases from health environment community and economic development, education, and we actually see very similar patterns regardless of size, regardless of issue, regardless of ideology. The role of foundations as credibility enhancers, one of the big things that happens if a foundation gives you a grant, you're seen by other community leaders as more credible because somebody vetted you and said yes, you are worth engaging with. The acceleration, the movement acceleration, here's new money go do more do bigger. The capacity building to strengthen their ability to get their message out, the building of networks that they're able to do by bringing together their grant grantees and others in the community, and then somewhat problematically their capacity to be an issue channeler. To say we're gonna go in this direction rather than that one for an issue so take school choice is a good example where you had funders engaged in many patterns around school choice, two big ones vouchers and charters. Funders really backed the charter movement, the charter movement has exploded across the country, vouchers haven't been as vibrant an option in the school choice movement in part because they haven't had the same resources to get their message out there. So there's some interesting kind of roles that foundations play across any issue that we look at. PC: And you talk about consistency, organizations feed off of consistency, that's how most organizations become successful but if we take a look at that policy maker in the car, *laughter* that face changes right? There's turnover at the federal level, here in Michigan we have term limits and the ideologies change as well, so are we seeing trends cause you just mentioned some of the data that you were exploring, are we seeing changes today kind of in in that arena when we talk about term limits in ideology, or has that pretty much baked in all along or are there new challenges that need to be addressed? JF: Well, I'll dive in here, and the Vicki, curious to hear your reactions too. VS: Yup. JF: Part of what makes foundations so powerful is that they are consistent. They will be here year in year out, they're not going to get replaced through an election, and the core ideologies and core the core strategies of foundations despite strategic shifts tend to be somewhat consistent as well. So building a focus and building a community of practice supporting a community of grantees and nonprofit leaders to be focusing on an issue is actually how issues move forward as the elected leaders change, and the strategy that they use will shift. You've got a supportive elective leader now you're an ally sh in conversation how do we move this together? They get beaten by somebody from the other side and now you're in opposition how do you push back, how do you limit their abilities, how do you find some common ground to still work together if you don't see eye to eye. Another election happens, another ideological shift the same nonprofits the same foundations are working in the same community year over year decade over decade. And so really actually service another place for community voice within our policy arena, separate from the electoral cycle.  PC: So, educational lobbying takes place in some ways.  JF: Mhmm. VS: Well and I I just wanna really underscore too what what Jason just said because philanthropy is really the long game, and so I think it there is that sort of focus on the systemic root causes of problems for the long haul, and so philanthropy provides that perspective in spite of these ideological shifts that doesn't mean they, he said don't have to adjust but they're looking at longer term time horizons, which corporations don't always have the benefit of doing and politicians certainly don't have the benefit of doing.  JF: Although I will say and it this is one of been the interesting things in the last few years the pace of policy change is accelerating and the polarization is magnifying, we are many commentators have said living in one of the most polarized political times in American history, and the pace of change largely because of digital technology and the mobilizing tools that are out there is also accelerating so it has presented an interesting challenge and I know we don't have time in this podcast to dive into it, for foundations and grantmakers to think about how do you fund that the pace of modern day social change? Foundations have been the long game. VS: Yup. JF: They have been around capacity building and field building but there's increasing moments in conversation today about rapid response giving, how do you move some money within days or weeks rather than weeks and months because as the pace of change accelerates, the actual patterns of grant making also have to shift to keep up in moving in relevant. VS: Yeah and I think we're seeing that even among new investors who may or may not be new philanthropist who may or may not even call themselves philanthropists and may or may not even create foundations who are giving in the short term to keep this comparison going, um giving in the short term and expecting results more quickly than perhaps the long game would allow. MD: I think this conversation... VS: It's really interesting. MD: Yeah it is, and it it really gives kind of um sort of helps us understand like the rationale for both of your positions right, both from a research perspective and from a capacity building or infrastructure role, that these are folks that perhaps don't always think you know want education or or need to learn but there's an actual practice here in terms of how to move an issue forward, when to exit from an issue, what's the right amount of pressure to put on either your grantees or on policy makers and when's it time to not put anymore., and so I think that's um why this such a fascinating conversation and to have two experts here that are coming at it from slightly different angles is really important to to understand that this happening in the background in every community in the country.  PC: Vicki Sprole President and CEO of Council on Foundations thank you so much. VS: Oh, thank you, I'm uh this was this was a wonderful conversation, could’ve gone on all afternoon.  MD: That's right *laughter* TM: Thanks Vicki. PC: And Dr. Jason Franklin W. K. Kellogg Chair for Community Philanthropy at the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy, Grand Valley State University, thank you so much. JF: It's been a pleasure to be here, thank you. PC: For Field Notes in Philanthropy... TM: I'm Tory Martin MD: And I'm Matthew Downey PC: And I'm Patrick Center, thank you. [MUSIC BED] Field Notes in Philanthropy is a partnership of WGVU Public Media, the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy, and Grand Valley State University. Our technical producer is Rick Mierling. Joe Moran composed our theme music. The views and opinions expressed on Field Notes in Philanthropy do not necessarily reflect those of WGVU, the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy, or Grand Valley State University.